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If you do call yourself a runner, can you handle the truth?

The Results
Unsolicited Affirmations, Kudos, Compliments and Complaints regarding 10k Truth

Subject: Civil War Relay Report
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003

Check out the race report on Team Kong www.10ktruth.com/the_races/civil.htm. Thanks again for running this year. I had a great time and hope you all did too. - Rage

John Responds - Nice work! Great story, great photos. Especially like the team 32 (the Silver Streaks) photo! Need more competitors like those; they were funny. Like the photo of you talking smack to Wendy. How come I am the only team member without a cool nickname...I feel like such a loser. - John

Rage Asks the Webmistress - John sounds like he would love to use our nickname generator service! I know Bruce weighed in strongly on this topic, but I can't remember if you kept it on the site. Any chance we could turn John on to it..sort of like an "ask and you shall receive" kind of gesture? - Rage

Webmistress Responds - Here's the link...I kept it despite Manciata's negative opinion about it... http://www.10ktruth.com/the_races/schedule.htm#nickname

Subject: More Site Comments
Date: 26 Nov 2003

I came across your site by way of a "running quotes" search on google. Other sites had only a few quotes, and all which I'd heard before. I was impressed with your quotes section, and merely want to say thank you. I'll probably print off the whole page and read it before my meets. I was also pleased to see it so recently updated. I'll throw you on my favorites and keep coming back. - N.D.

Subject: Site Comments
Date: 7 Nov 2003

Great site!! I like the fact that you are so "matter of fact". Great quotes for motivation. Thanks! - Nancy

Subject: Kong
Date: 28 Feb 2003

We've met a few times at races, but I don't think you know me by name... plus my name always appears several inches, sometimes pages, under yours in the race results. Anyway, I ran across your website totally by accident today and want to know more about "Kong." I am currently training for the Newport Marathon and a 200 mile mountain bike trek through Colorado & Utah and I would love to try a new hill workout. If you don't mind, could you please provide me with the driving directions to the start? By the way, great website. It's your fault that I didn't get any work done this morning. I think I read every page. I was especially caught up in your race results / recaps. I ran many of these same races (including Boston) and especially enjoyed your write-up on Sacramento. That one was truly a gut check. Take care and I'll see you around the bike paths. - B.H.

Subject: Great site Rage
Date: 16 Dec 2002

Here's a weird one. I'm an Irishman living in freezing Sweden and an Australian mate who's living here but not really into running, told me about your site. Don't know how he found it but glad he did. So, I've spent the morning reading it instead of working. Great stuff altogether and great to read of your respect towards the phenomenal Zatopek. Got to agree with you also. Running hurts but it's worth the pain. I remember vividly learning about all this one cold damp Sunday morning running in a 4 mile cross country race in the middle of the Irish winter. I was a skinny 15 year old. It was wet and mucky and the wind was blowing pretty heavily. I told the coach afterwards I was happy with the result and I enjoyed the run. He looked at me strangely. He was disgusted. "enjoyed it!!!! he exclaimed. What do you mean, you enjoyed it. You're not supposed to enjoy it," he shouted. "You're supposed to get around the course as fast as you can and if you can run yourself so hard into the ground that you need hospital attention afterwards, then you can say you enjoyed it. Only then you can you say you ran a good race." He gave me a bit of a shock and as a teenager, it might have been a bit much but he also told it as he saw it. I was enlightened.

14 years later and it's another Sunday morning (yesterday morning) and I spent 2 and a half hours running through a snowy Swedish forest with a bunch of elite Swedish orienteerers. It was minus 5 - we ran through marshes and really dodgy terrain and some of the guys got clobbered by branches, cut their faces and others put their foot through ice and fell and the other guys just kept on running. Nobody was bothered at all and the guys who got cut or fell just carried on. These guys were demons.

So, of course it's going to hurt but it felt great to be out in it, and the shower felt great after. Good to see you enlightening thousands more people today Rage and I love your race reports. Keep it up. - Colm (12/16/02)

Subject: Response to your Home page
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002

I don't know who you are but what you say on your home page about pain is absolutely correct and you're the first person that I've heard put it this way since I saw the movie about the life of the great runner Steve Prefontaine. It was Prefontaine's statement at some point in his life and in the movie about his life that "The reason that I run faster than everyone else is that I can stand more pain than them." I've done one marathon and several 10Ks. I'm 53 and am trying to break 55 minutes July 27th in Castle Dale, Utah's River Bottom Run. Ever since learning about Prefontaine's attitude I kind of felt that this is what was really at the core of the desire to run - to go faster and to have to feel pain to do it. You have fortified that belief for me. Thanks. - J.S.

Subject: Running and pain
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002

Just read your piece about running and pain...at last someone who tells it like it is! Too many wankers in this life are taking the "soft option" and never finding out what it's like to be really alive by pushing your boundarys. I'm writing this with 2 hours to go before a 1/2 marathon and although it's England,i'm expecting the weather to be in the mid 80's. I'm going to run faster than i've ever tried before because i can.You are a long time dead, so life must be a mixture of pain and pleasure so that you can understand the mystery and beauty of it all. Regards and respect. - P.N.

Subject: 2002 Butte To Butte
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002
Hey Rage - good job on the 2002 Butte-to-Butte. You ate my lunch, even though I was trying awfully hard (in fact you almost saw my lunch in the chute)! I was a little disappointed in the time - I think we lost a chunk in mile 6 (mine was 6:10 I think). Instead of bearing down in the last mile I was just trying to hang on. But to be honest what was harder to accept was trying one last surge at the end and having you zip by me like you had a string attached to my back. Even though losing our little dual bugged me, I must say it was pretty cool running a race like that, pretty much shoulder-to-shoulder the whole time. I always have run races for time, never really thinking much about who is around me except for trying to catch a couple of folks just before the chute This was different, though, and I really liked it. Thanks. You are one tough runner. Just one question - remember when I tried a surge at the end of mile 3 to put some distance between us: did you speed up to catch up with me, or did I slow down? I have never tried a surge in a race before either, and am trying to figure out if the energy expenditure is worth it as opposed to trying to run steady the whole way. Cheers, Kyle

Note: Congratulations Kyle on your outstanding win in the Coburg Run in the Country 5-Miler! Looks like the Rage ducked you this time. See the Good Race for all 2002 Run in the Country race results.

Subject: The Penguin
Date: Wed, 8 May 2002
Great letter (see 10kTruth.com Web Letter, May 2002) ! I really have always felt like you re: the "Penguin" concept.....My personal notion of why I run has to do with challenging myself, and discovering what I can do (the results will never be world records, but more important to me ..... my best effort!). George Sheehan, whom I was lucky to get to meet, and talk to at the Lynchburg 10 Miler 25 years ago, I think always wrote about, and embodied the individual accomplishment that we all could verify every time we gave an all out effort! Keep up the great posts, thanks. - M.F.

Subject: Web Site Comments
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002
I LOVE you're website (it just helped me waste three full hours of a busy workday!) Thanks! Cheers, Paul

Subject: 10k Truth Cycling Quotes Web Site Comments]
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002

As I was reading the cycling quotes, I found a major mistake! There was written: Eddy Merckx, who won de Tour de France THREE times. Now you underestimate him; he won de Tour FIVE times, just like Jacques Anquetil, Bernard Hinault and Miguel Indurain did! Sincerely, Y.P., Belgium

Thanks for pointing this out. We have corrected our mistake. There was no disrespect intended, and we apologize for the oversight. Captain Queeg has been formally relieved of his command. The ballbearings are safely tucked away in his pocket. The missing strawberries have been found. Best regards. The Rage

Subject: Don't You Just Hate
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001

Marathons... I heard the conditions were really crappy. Any thoughts, reflections or insight? - TGB

Editor's Note: See The Rage's Marathon Report

Subject: Penguin Meets the Rage
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001

Rage, I just need to tell you, your stuff is wonderful and quite a refreshing break! The penguin meets the rage...now that is a match made in heaven! Hilarious. - MW

Subject: Hey
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001
That 2001 Scandia race was definitely a good one for me. I am flattered that you included me in your write-up of the race. I really like your website - I had no idea it existed! Reading your stuff is a refreshing change from most of the running patter that is out there. I definitely feel like I identify with the notion of running to get faster, so see absolutely how fast I can go. That is my motivation. All of my training is devoted to getting faster - period. All the other benefits (fitness, health, stress reduction) are nice side-effects, but not enough to keep me going. I read about Kong with interest - how do you get to the starting point? I do most of my long hill stuff on the Greenhill Rd hill in SE Eugene. I wonder how it compares with Kong. I have to double-dip it to get a good workout from it, overall taking me 33-35 minutes to finish at the top, and several stretches are pretty steep. But, from reading about Kong I bet Kong is tougher, and I would like to try it. - K.G.

Subject: Kong location
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001
Hi, I enjoyed your website, and I would like to give Kong a try. I couldn't find any driving directions, so where is it exactly? thanks, spinner

My Son:
Just as Shoeless Joe can't be summoned out of a cornfield at a beckon call, Kong cannot be conjured up with a map or a phone book. Kong is not just another square on a runner's destination card, waiting to be punched. Be patient, my son..if you seek The Truth, Kong will come to you. The Rage

Subject: Banff relay
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001

Any chance you've heard of anyone thinking about resurrecting this race. It's been my dream to run it, but I guess that one will die :-( Wendy in San Diego

Hi Wendy (in San Diego),
While we are not plugged into the grapevine on this one, we have heard nothing that would indicate that the JTB Relay is being resurrected. If you hear something different, could you let us know? Thanks. The Rage

Subject: walk don't run
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001
I see that the Rage posted a strong second place finish in the annual Butte to Butte 4.5 mile mayors walk (37:52). Kudos to the Rage for always being on the cutting edge of innovative cross training techniques. Looking forward to the race report. Rumor on the street is that the Rage has developed a new "dome cam" that covers the action during the race by means of a small camera attached to his hat. Like a shark the Rage is constantly moving forward. - S. Cooper

Subject: Congrats!
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001

Way to go! Second place in Walking Division. Looks like you will be successful in your new endeavor. Is it hard to swivel your hips back and forth like you walkers do? - R. Goertzen

Subject: Print Media Guard Threatened by Rage
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001

Hey Rage,
After nearly going blind struggling to find The Rage's time in the Butte to Butte 10k results page this morning I happened to glance over at the Walk times. Lo and behold there you were in second place. Only one explanation possible. It's the Register Guard's way of blatantly taking down The Rage. Guard staffers have read The Rage. They know The Rage. They're threatened by The Rage's growing empire in CyberSpace. So what better way to disenfranchise The Rage's followers than to find their 10k Running Guru hiding out with the Walkers during the hallowed Butte to Butte Run on the 4th of July. Appalling how low some will go. - C. Eberhart

Subject: Pacing
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001

hey guys,
i am running a little bit, but more work and weight-lifting than anything. Alan Webb is a very inspirational athlete, and he's a very solid high-school runner. well, i am running faster miles also: i ran up at liberty a 4:37, from the city line to the mile post that says "Liberty 1 Mile"!!!! pretty good i thought, and i ran two miles in 10:06, so i'm gaining on my endurance : ). <- smily face. - Cam

Subject: Photo
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001

10kTruth.com runners brake for photo-opsOn my trip to Willamette River, I took a photo of 4 guys, and they told me that I can send the photo to this address. Do you know any of them? If so, please let me know. Thanks - Rebecca

Hi Rebecca,
I was one of the guys posing for you for the pictures that you undoutedly now have framed and prominently displayed in your home. Wow! You have a great memory! While they are not nearly as good looking as me (...I was the tallest...about 6'4" with the bronze pecs...kind of a Brad Pitt sort of look...), I have reluctantly copied the other three people who were also posing for your picture. Oh...I almost forgot to ask...Did the photo come out? Could we have a copy to post on our website? Thanks for getting back to us. - The Rage

Hi,
Although I didn't frame and prominently display the photo in my home yet, I showed many of my friends about this picture. I shared the story with them as well. This trip is one of the best ones in my memory so far. I would never forget what I have seen and what I have experienced in it, including you as well. I think all of you are looking pretty good. I recognized you according to your description and believe that you have a lot of confidence in yourself. (Just kidding) Attached is the photo. Please let me know if it is O.K. - Rebecca

Subject: 10k Truth Web Letter - May 2001
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001

I enjoyed your last newsletter - especially the pictures of Kong. It's nice to have an idea of what that climb looks like; pretty tough it looks like. You guys rule. - E.S.

Subject: The Truth moves in mysterious ways
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2001

So I'm out on Sunday, Easter Sunday, and doing a long run with purpose. Decided I would try the half again on May 7, so I needed a two hour run to dispel all doubt. Had my water bottle on a belt pack the whole bit, everything that Manciata disdains. ( I wonder if he's feeling bad for P. Knight ?). Took the route up Dillard around to Willamette and down over to Crest and Lorane Hwy., a good pull. Felt pretty good as I was finishing running the last bit along the bike path when this guy on a bike comes up from behind me and says something like, " Why don't you give up that distance crap and do some real running", threw the comment to me like an insult. This must be someone I know so, not breaking stride (not junk miles but marathon pace running) I say I do short stuff too. He comes around in front of me and I don't know this guy. I ask what kind of running he does and he tells me that he ran in the mini meet Saturday morning and ran the 1500 in 4:22. I said that's good. Told him I was doing a long run in prep for a 1/2 in two weeks. He acknowledged that that was a good idea, if you're going to run a half. He then said good-bye and was gone. Many thoughts were passing through my long run addled brain. Was this a setup? How did this guy know I was running long? Is it really true that long runs are bad? By doing long runs am I hiding my fear of speed work? The truth moves in mysterious ways. --S. Cooper

Subject: Great Website
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001

I'm going to get you Logan.
-- The Devil (aka Todd B.)
(See "The Devil Made Me Do It," Race Report in which The Rage went toe to toe with The Devil.)

Subject: Web Site Comments
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001
Love this site! I can really relate to your blue collar mentality toward running. I've been doing my own Kong (Hough Hill is the actual name of the road) and is a one mile straight up puppy that will make you bawl! Seven weeks ago I began this lunacy and started seeing the results in a recent 10-K, where I set a PR of 42:28 and beat two arch rivals in the process! Pretty soon I'm going to try going up it twice. Thanks for the idea, I am in your debt for the inspiration, and its good to know there are other runners out there like me! --Jeff R.

Subject: Rage against the dying of the light
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001
The Rage's report on the Shamrock Run is his best writing yet. Somebody better tell Joe Henderson that there's another mule kicking in his stall. -- Cooper

Thanks for the kinds words. I can see from your chosen language in the subject line to your email these are clear indicators your standard running outfit includes a bandana and probably an original leather string of Paul Geis beads. With all due respect to my colleague Joe Henderson, you inspire me and the rest of us here at 10K Truth to continue offering an alternative perspective to the mainstream running magazine establishment. --The Rage

Subject: Coop, Rage, Welch
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001
Mile repeats today. Decent set (5:37, 5:32, 5:26).

Real good confidence booster. Can't remember the last time I felt that good. Have not had the hammer lately. Need more track. Need Kong. But, it just ain't the same without Bruce...Not to mention, I've been afraid to run it...and as you well know, you best not run Kong without your head on straight, baby. Maybe Sunday. Coop continues to amaze. Welch his usual steady self...even for not running any hard stuff lately. Later. --The Rage

Subject: Shuffling truffles
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001
Hey good job you guys in the Shuffle Truffle. I saw Wendy's name right up there in the results. When are we going to get another relay thing together? Mr. Manclark's going to go through withdrawal without the group hug experience this spring. It's your turn this time. Actually I could get a few people from up here but it'll probably be hard to replace JTB. "The Relay" in the Bay Area looks interesting and there is another in Colorado sponsored by Outward Bound. I'm heading back to Boston again in April, to see if I can dip under 3 hours one more time. Training's going well but I'm getting tired of Sundays, Tuesdays and Thursdays. I ran a 1:17 20K this weekend for my last race. One more 20-miler next weekend and it's taper time. -Terry

Subject: 211 in Progress
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001

Distpacher: One Adam 12 - One Adam 12 - we have a 211 in progress, One Adam 12?
Malloy: One Adam 12
Dispatcher: See the man with Plantars Fasciitis, he's at 190 pounds and heading for a 211........At the Cinnabon Shop at VRC...
Malloy: Must be fat boy again, he's injured and off the wagon............This isn't going to be easy, better call for back-up......... - M.D.

Subject: Great talk from one of my heroes
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 20:59:46
Thought you might enjoy this. Billy Mills is the last American male to win a medal in a distance track event. It was one of the greastest races of all times. Reading this (Twenty Seconds of Pain by Billy Mills in the Journal of American Indian Education, Volume 13 Number 3, May 1974) just about made me cry. Sport has so much to offer young people. --Bruce

Re: "Da Penguin"
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 18:31:22 EST
Love your web-site, especially after reading the comments on "The Penguin". You want to know how far Runner's World has fallen? Read the Jan. column by "The Penguin"and you'll see just how far they've fallen....To let you know what slant I'm coming from: I formed my version of the Stotans, based of course on the teachings of Cerutty. We Stotans have run and raced on some section of the Finger Lakes Trails since the late'80's. Until about a year ago I put out a small but popular newsletter called The Stotan News--one of the few periodicals that was for REAL runners and about REAL running. Well-enough about me---again---thank God for your web-site and a few others! --Dave

Re: Truth
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 21:32:35
Plain English: I love your website. And like the truth - love hurts too.

Re: Damn wimp
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:45:30
Forget Kong, intervals are still the BEST method for increasing resistance to laziness, pain and low knee lift. Add Kong as a supplement to circular mind numbing torture. Teachers working again. Weather is decent. I have even lost a couple of pounds. I should have gone to Australia...damn wimp. --Fred

Re: Cranked the hill
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:20:25
Welch here. I got up early this morning and ran Kong. I didn't call you, because you said you don't do it early. I experimented with slowing down on the approach to the steep part. I think I slowed a bit too much in the first part, because I ended up with a 32:57--off 22 seconds from my previous run with you. I got to the first gate way off--8:19, the corral @ 13:55, and the base of the steep at 16:15. We got to the base at about 15:10 or something like that last time. I think I cranked the hill pretty well and felt pretty good in the top section, but the experiment with the slow start messed me up in the end. It was a beautiful morning run--nice and cool. Peace and love.

Re: Rain and pain
Date: 7 Jul 00 20:06:15 PDT

Good run today. My Kong run was a reminder of the constant sacrifice Kong demands. It's been too long between runs up there. Don't give me flat halfs and track work outs, we need strength. It was really wet. Heavy shoes, long wet grass bent over the trail. All I could manage was a 34:14. And it hurt. I didn't dog it. The Steens could be a long run unless I get some hill climbing ability back. -- Manciata

PS. I didn't see your cougar, maybe Bigfoot got it.

The Rage Replies
I agree that we need more strength. Maybe then, I would be better prepared to fight off the alien abduction next trip up Kong. I am hurting. Last year, I ran faster in the Butte to Butte and felt like I had a hammer in the last 1.2. This year, I lose 12 seconds over the last 1.2 and my quads are shredded from mile 2. I think the only difference in my training is the absence of Kong. I need to get back on Kong. Is it too late to get any benefit from an ascent later this week for the half coming up on the 16th?

I determined that the 400 is too short for me to get my mass moving. Came in second to a sprinter looking dude who ran a 56. I ran a 59. I was the only person running sans blocks. I had the inside lane and was DFL until midway down the backstretch. Managed to pass three guys, one in the lass 10 yards, but still a ways back of the winner. Ran the 800 yesterday with better results. I won in 2:13 with no competition. We had a staggered start and I ran in leg 7. Passed the guy in lane 8 quickly and looked over my shoulder when I headed for the inside lane to see nobody close. I was a little nervous about going too fast but was relieved to hear the 400 time was in the ballpark - 63. It was fun but would have liked someone pushing. I guess I found that I like running scared in front. --Terry Mike and Terry on board

Mike (left) & Terry (right)

06/26/00 11:58AM
Are you and T-bone going to run on Saturdary and/or Sunday at the Hayward Classic? I'll have to work hard not to come in DFL in 400 and 800. --Terry

I can't believe I missed this. I guess I thought it was coming up in July...or I just can't handle The Truth...probably the latter... I've had a lot of distractions lately outside of running (coaching my son's baseball team), but hope to squeeze a track race at the All Comers meet this Thursday after work to run the mile (so is T-Bone). I'll give you the damage report Sunday. I plan on watching you run the 800 on Sunday morning. I assume you are running at 10:45 a.m. as per the schedule. I can't make the 400 at 2:15 on Saturday, but am copying the email to Tommy to make sure there is someone there to talk some smack. I'll see if I can get Bruce to come, too. --Mike

06/18/00
Today I stepped on the track for mile repeats. Oh -- guess who hasn't been doin' the speed. Wanted to do three. Did two in 5:45's. I was wobblin'. More track, less smack. See ya, Manciata

...and The Rage sends yet another off the wall email to another unsuspecting runner, who gets a lot more than she was asking for...

Wow. What a course. Hills are The Truth. The Truth hurts. You have found The Truth. Seeking The Truth is not for wimps. You have run Kong. You understand steep and pain. While you did not see him, Kong was smiling during your trail-a-thon. You have now been assimilated into Kong's collective. He is in you...deep down in your quads and calves. You don't get that from any refrigerator magnet. Loved the poison oak thing. Loved the finish. No fan fare. Just a guy with a watch and a medic, like some hot LZ in the Mekong Delta at the end of a 42 click recon infested with Charlie...and Charlie don't surf, baby....and he certainly don't take no R&R.

You can ride in my van anytime. Congratulations.--Mike

Coop at the Hood to Coast
Coop

Coop and the Rage did some mile repeats today. He is leaning toward coming up the hill this Sunday, that is, if the Sultan has consulted Kong. He's gearing up for the Legend's Half in a couple of weeks. --Mike

Subject: Crossing the line
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:57:33 -0700

Went out yesterday evening to do some track work. Earlier in the day I had been in PDX so I had a little pent up road Manciata. Drove over to South track and was met by a huge number of people, no parking etc., track meet in progress. So I decided to go back to my old loop at Westmoreland Park. Sunday I had done a 13 mile run with many hills so the legs weren't exactly fresh. Anyway I did the 4,3,2,1 sequence because it sounded so punishing. Now, I used to run this 400 meter loop alot in years past but never like this. I did the mile in 5:59, the 1200 in 4:27, the 800 in 2:55 and the 400 in 1:19. Okay , I'll admit that a remeasure of the loop may be in order. Those times represent a huge difference from previous times. And that's today's truth. Almost religious afterward. Could be because it is close to Easter. I've found that running faster comes from pushing the edge as hard as you can and holding on. It's not supposed to feel good. Did I mention that the running surface was uneven? --Cooper

Got blown off the track today by some horses who showed up for the last lap of our 9 lap workout...I tried to steal it from those opportunistic sandbaggers (real nice guys, actually) going out real hard in the first 200 with about a 10 meter lead, but got thoroughly dusted as I faded badly over the last 100 by at least 3 full seconds. Despite the drubbing, we ran some decent laps...75, 2:33, 3:59, 2:35....and finished with the no guts 68 which should have been faster. Williams was right there with 75, 2:36, 4:05 (I didn't catch his last times) and he's still running strong. --Mike

Did the first half in 17:51 and the second half in 18:08. Was all over the first four (23:05), but I could not hold pace in five and six (5:56, 5:52). I glanced over at the Coburg's at mile 5 and I thought I saw Kong looking down in disgust. --Mike

Tommy hammered out a 5:44 over at the track today. He was way pumped. I think we may have another convert to the Truth Method.

What about that little *!* Logan? Too fast for me. What's wrong with 59?. Not many guys can run their age in a 400 meters. 2:13 is great too. Mike can run a sub 34 on a flat 10K course. Training for a marathon would just screw him up. Why be another sub 3 hour marathoner when you can be a sub 34:00 10 K guy?

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